"So anyway last night we go to Mandalay, and it's like on Friday nights they have this..."

Fire and Ice[1]
The Other Side
Original Broadcast Date
Debi Mae West, Larry Block, Kristine McKenna, Joe Frank
Karma Style, 57 minutes
Preceded by: Where Will It End?
Followed by: The Angina Dialogues

Fire and Ice is a program Joe Frank produced as part of the series The Other Side. It was originally broadcast on March 4, 2001.


Debi tells Joe about Friday night at the Mandalay (a club), how great Malcolm looks. They're celebrating that Malcolm told his wife that he's leaving her, that he's changing his life to be with Debi.

3:50: Larry tells Joe about the drive he took on valium and liquor. He side-swiped a police car; the cop let him go because he was so in control.

12:10: Debi tells Joe about going to lunch with her mother yesterday. Debi's happy with herself. We hear Malcolm sing and play.

22:30: Larry tells Joe that valium puts him in the mood to drink. Joe tells Larry about a year ago when he drank, took valium, and drove.

25:10: Debi tells Joe that Malcolm sat with her while she chanted.

28:20: Larry tells Joe about Mike Wallace coming out as a depressed-person. Joe reminds Larry of his interview with General Westmoreland. Larry reads a fragment of his latest poem.

31:40: Joe tells Larry that he thinks he must address the emotional damage he has suffered via psychotherapy. Larry thinks drugs are more effective. Larry tells Joe about black jeans.

36:50: Kristine McKenna talks about the people he knows who are damaged inside: they have to struggle with their trauma.

38:30: Kristine McKenna tells Joe about a fellow she met at a party. Though she didn't like or respect him, she went out with him, had a relationship. He told her he wasn't in love with her: he wasn't enchanted with her. She tired of him, broke off with him. Afterwards she'd sneak into his place when he was absent to hang out.

48:20: Larry tells Joe was taking valium and drinking His family is unhappy with his substance abuse. He says he has to do it because he feels so bad. Jolly takes his scotch and valium away. He promises his family that he'll stop. On his way home from a meeting at his children's school he buys a bottle. He sounds intoxicated.

55:30: Larry reads Joe his poem, 'To a woman of a certain age'. He sounds sober.

Legacy Synopsis
  • Debi Mae West - her boyfriend tells his wife about their relationship.
  • Larry Block - while driving under the influence of valium and liquor he hits a police car. Joe talks about doing the same thing when told he might have a brain tumor.
  • Debi - she chants and sings with her boyfriend
  • Larry and Joe - Mike Wallace's depression. A critique of using medication to treat psychological problems. The value of understanding one's problems.
  • Kristine McKenna - Everyone she knows is carrying around life changing trauma. Dating a timid man who doesn't love her. They break up, she is haunted by his stuff, sneaks into his apartment.
  • Larry - His family confronts him about his drug use. He spends a day sober, has a conversation while headed to a liquor store that convinces him to stay clean, then falls off the wagon immediately.
  • Larry - a poem "to a woman of a certain age."


Additional credits

From the broadcast, 'You've been listening to Joe Frank "The other side". This program was called "Fire and ice" with Larry Block, Debi Mae West, Kristine McKenna, and Joe Frank - production: J. C. Swiatek, production assistance: Esmé Gregson'


  1. "Zion", a reworked version of "Bullet (Bitten)", was heard two years later during the "cave rave" scene of The Matrix Reloaded.