The Wire: Difference between revisions

From The Joe Frank Wiki
No edit summary
m Text replacement - "|labelstyle = background:var(--infobox-header-color);" to "|labelstyle = background:var(--infobox-header-color); width:35%;"
 
(26 intermediate revisions by 3 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Infobox
{{Infobox
|name = Infobox/doc
|bodystyle = width:30em;
|bodystyle = width:30em;
|headerstyle = background:#ccf;
|headerstyle = background:var(--infobox-header-color);
|labelstyle = background:#ddf;
|labelstyle = background:var(--infobox-header-color); width:35%;
|header1 = Series
|header1 = Series
|header3 = Original Broadcast Date
|header3 = Original Broadcast Date
Line 12: Line 11:
|data8 = [[:Category:Karma Style|Karma Style]], 60 minutes
|data8 = [[:Category:Karma Style|Karma Style]], 60 minutes
|data4  = March 26, [[:Category:2000|2000]]
|data4  = March 26, [[:Category:2000|2000]]
|title = [https://www.joefrank.com/shop/wire-the The Wire][https://www.joefrank.com/streaming/shows/?jfsearch=Wire]
|below = [https://www.joefrank.com/?s={{#invoke:URLEncode|encode|{{PAGENAME}}}} Purchase]
|belowstyle= border-top: 1px solid #333;padding-top:5px;
|data6  = [[Larry Block]], [[Jack Kornfield]], Joe Frank
|data6  = [[Larry Block]], [[Jack Kornfield]], Joe Frank
|data10 = [[Zen]]
|data10 = [[Zen]]
Line 25: Line 25:


== Synopsis ==
== Synopsis ==
 
Larry tells Joe he&apos;s in Seattle acting in <i>God of Vengeance</i>, a
Joe tells a number of stories from his childhood.  Some of them have
play written by [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Margulies Donald Margulies], an
to be fictional.  I think they all are.
adaptation of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholem_Asch Sholem Asch]&apos;s play of the same
 
name.<ref>[http://www.filmreference.com/film/55/Larry-Block.html Film Reference page for Larry Block] has
Larry tells us he's in Seattle acting in <i>God of vengeance</i>, a
only this entry, &lsquo;Reb Eli, God of Vengeance, Adams Memorial Theater,
play written by Donald Margulies
Williamstown, MA, 2002&rsquo;, which was after &lsquo;The Wire&rsquo;.  I figure it&apos;s
<ref>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Margulies</ref>, an
adaptation of Sholem
Asch's<ref>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholem_Asch</ref> play of
the same
name.<ref>http://www.filmreference.com/film/55/Larry-Block.html has
only this entry, 'Reb Eli, God of Vengeance, Adams Memorial Theater,
Williamstown, MA, 2002', which was after 'The wire'.  I figure it's
incomplete.</ref> Larry summarizes the play.
incomplete.</ref> Larry summarizes the play.


7:10: Joe tells us his family used to summer-vacation in
7:10: Joe tells us his family used to summer-vacation in
Amenia<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenia_(town)%2C_New_York</ref>.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenia_(town)%2C_New_York Amenia].
The neighbors bred chinchillas.  One died, they buried it, Joe's dog
The neighbors bred chinchillas.  One died, they buried it, Joe's dog
dug it up; his parents thought their dog had killed it, so they
dug it up; his parents thought their dog had killed it, so they
Line 48: Line 41:
9:10: Joe remembers when he spilled auto battery acid onto his pants.
9:10: Joe remembers when he spilled auto battery acid onto his pants.


9:40: Joe tells story of his childhood, which includes his sister
9:40: Joe tells stories of his childhood, which include his sister
Naomi and his crude grandfather, including when he pushed a piano off
Naomi and his crude grandfather, including when the grandfather pushed a piano off
the roof of the apartment building.
the roof of the apartment building.<ref>Joe had no sister; his grandfathers predeceased him.</ref>


12:00: Joe remembers a bully holding his face against a subway
12:00: Joe remembers a bully holding his face against a subway
grating.  Joe smacked the bully's trumpet into his teeth.
grating.  Later, Joe smacks the bully&apos;s trumpet into his teeth.


13:40: Joe remembers a dog stealing his sandwich.
13:40: Joe remembers a dog stealing his sandwich.
Line 67: Line 60:
had to help him because the Jews couldn't break the sabbath.  I'm not
had to help him because the Jews couldn't break the sabbath.  I'm not
Jewish, but I think this is wrong, that in matters that threaten death
Jewish, but I think this is wrong, that in matters that threaten death
or serious injury the rule doesn't apply - so I've read.</ref>
or serious injury the rule doesn't apply - so I&apos;ve read.</ref>


19:50: Joe tells of stealing a ribbon of magnesium from the science
19:50: Joe tells of stealing a ribbon of magnesium from the science
lab, to burn it in the park.  They replace it with a beef lung.
lab, to burn it in the park.  They replace it with a beef lung to which they attach a duck call.


22:50: Jack Kornfield reads a poem of Rumi about a man with a jealous
22:50: Jack Kornfield reads a poem of [[wikipedia:Rumi|Rumi]] about a man with a jealous
wife and beautiful maid servant, as an illustration of the difference
wife and beautiful maid servant, as an illustration of the difference
between fear and love.  He points out the problem grasping causes.  He
between fear and love.  He points out the problem grasping causes.  He
tells the story of the old Zen master and the thief.
tells the story of the old Zen master and the thief.


30:20: Larry tells about Lorin
30:20: Larry tells about [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorin_Hollander Lorin Hollander];
Hollander<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorin_Hollander</ref>;
Larry claims he was a friend of Hollander's older sister, grew up in
Larry claims he was a friend of Hollander's older sister, grew up in
the same neighborhood.  Hollander's playing a concert.<ref>Larry calls
the same neighborhood.  Hollander's playing a concert.<ref>Larry calls
it a Gershwin symphony; it was his Concerto in F</ref>. Larry
it a Gershwin symphony; it was his <i>Concerto in F</i></ref>  Larry
attends, meets him afterwards.  Hollander is nice to him, but Larry
attends, meets him afterwards.  Hollander is nice to him, but Larry
wonders if he really remembers him.
wonders if he really remembers him.<ref>Larry shifts his time frame in this story.  He says he came back the next day to see Hollander, then he says he left before the third piece because of his disappointing meeting with him.</ref>


40:10: Joe got a job in the garment district when he was 13 working
40:10: Joe gets a job in the garment district when he&apos;s 13, working
for a friend of his father.  Nora got a job at the same time, fell in
for a friend of his father.  Nora got a job at the same time, fell in
love with the boss, Sol, because of his knowledge of Restoration
love with the boss, Sol, because of his knowledge of Restoration
poetry.  Joe sees them making love.
poetry.<ref>Joe lists 'Suckling' as one of the Restoration poets Sol knew.  [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Suckling_(poet) Sir John Suckling] lived 1609-1641, thus died before the Restoration</ref><ref>Joe quotes a few lines from Pope's &lsquo;Essay on man&rsquo; - &lsquo;Why has not a man a microscopic eye?&hellip;&rsquo;</ref> Joe sees them making love.


42:40: Joe remembers 'the year of beatniks'<ref>1955?  Joe says he was
42:40: Joe remembers 'the era of [[wikipedia:Beatnik|beatniks]]'<ref>1955?  Joe says he was about
16.</ref> He would hang out at cafés, trying to be hip. He
16.</ref> He would hang out at caf&eacute;s, trying to be hip. He
remembers listening to Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Ted Joans
remembers listening to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Ferlinghetti Lawrence Ferlinghetti]
<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Joans</ref>.  One night, at the
and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Joans Ted Joans].
Café Noir, a pimp sets him up with a 'housewife' from Morris county,
One night, at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe_Wha%3F Caf&eacute; Wha?],<ref>Joe says he was listening to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richie_Havens Richie Havens]
playing music, which he didn't start doing until the '60s; he says he performed poetry in
the Village in the '50s. </ref> a pimp sets him up with a &lsquo;housewife&rsquo; from Morris county,
New Jersey.  They park next to the Staten Island ferry; she gropes
New Jersey.  They park next to the Staten Island ferry; she gropes
him.
him.


46:00: Joe remembers being 19, in Santa Barbara; he's borrowed his
46:00: Joe remembers being 19, in Santa Barbara; he's borrowed his
boss's car.  He set the seat on fire by lighting a match to find some
boss&apos;s car.<ref>A &lsquo;Dodge Dart station wagon&rsquo; - those were made 1960-66, when Joe was 21-28</ref> He set the seat on fire by lighting a match to find some
marijuana he'd hidden under it.  He says it's the '60s.<ref>Joe was
marijuana he&apos;d hidden under it.  He says it&apos;s the &apos;60s.<ref>Joe was
born in 1938, thus 19 in 1957/1958.</ref> The seat was destroyed; Joe
born in 1938, thus 19 in 1957/1958.</ref> The seat was destroyed; Joe
replaced them with folding bridge chairs taped to the floor.
replaced it with folding bridge chairs taped to the floor.<ref>A member of the Joe Frank e-mail list says this story happened to David Rapkin. http://list.jfwiki.org/pipermail/joe-frank-email-list-jfwiki.org/2024-July/000503.html </ref>


48:40: Kornfield tells about his teaching partner Joseph
48:40: Kornfield tells about his teaching partner [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goldstein_(writer) Joseph Goldstein].
Goldstein.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goldstein_(writer)</ref>
He tells about Goldstein's mother visiting Goldstein in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodh_Gaya Bodh Gaya] monastery
He tells about Goldstein's mother visiting Goldstein in the monastery
in India, how much she liked the simplicity of it.  This leads into
in India, how much she liked the simplicity of it.  This leads into
more slanging of grasping.  He talks about the different kinds of
more slanging of grasping.  He talks about the different kinds of
giving.  He quotes Epictetus, 'Never suppress a generous impulse.'
giving.  He quotes [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus Epictetus], 'Never suppress a generous impulse.'


57:00: Larry tells of walking along the beach, thought of writing Karl
57:00: Larry tells of walking along the beach, thinks of writing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wallenda Karl Wallenda]'s line
Wallenda's, 'The wire is life; the rest is waiting.', on a piece of
&lsquo;The wire is life; the rest is waiting&rsquo; on a piece of
drift wood.  As an actor, he's on-stage 2 hours at a time; the rest is
driftwood.  As an actor, he's on-stage 2 hours at a time; the rest is
waiting.  Then he decided against it, that it'd be litter.
waiting.  Then he decides against it, that it&apos;d be litter.


<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:100%; overflow:auto;">
<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width:95%; overflow:auto;">
<div style="font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;">Legacy Synopsis</div>
<div style="font-weight:bold;line-height:1.6;">Legacy Synopsis</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">
Line 140: Line 133:
*Larry talks about leaving a note on the beach.
*Larry talks about leaving a note on the beach.
</div></div>
</div></div>


== Music ==  
== Music ==  
{{Love Like a Fountain - Stereo MC's Mix (Ian Brown)}} [6:47]
{{Love Like a Fountain - Stereo MC's Mix (Ian Brown)}} [6:47]


== Credits ==
== Additional credits ==
The original broadcast credits state: "[C]reated in collaboration with [[David Rapkin]], with [[Larry Block]], Buddhist teacher
[[Jack Kornfield]], and Joe Frank; edited by Scott Fritz; mixed by [[Bob Carlson]].


'You've been listening to Joe Frank "The other side" created in
== Miscellany ==
collaboration with David Rapkin, with Larry Block, Buddhist teacher
* This program is also available on joefrank.com as [https://www.joefrank.com/shop/zen-two Zen Two]
Jack Kornfield, and Joe Frank; edited by Scott Fritz; mixed by Bob
Carlson'


At 22:10 Joe says: &lsquo;And so Tommy Rado and I went to Palisades
Amusement Park to see Dr. Neff, the ghost raker.&rsquo;


== Additional credits ==
A Redditor pointed me to [https://youtu.be/_4iBy_BI_BQ, a short video of a poster advertising Dr Neff&apos;s &lsquo;midnite ghost show&rsquo; at the Ritz.]
* Created in collaboration with [[David Rapkin]].
[https://horrorcomicsofthe1950s.blogspot.com/2019/10/ghost-breakers-dr-neff-cracks-menace-of_25.html A Charlton comic &lsquo;Ghost Breakers&rsquo;]  
* Edited by Scott Fritz
features Dr. Neff, who debunks charlatans&apos; ghost hoaxes,
* Mixed by [[Bob Carlson]]
 
Joe also mentions going to Palisades Park to see Dr Neff, the ghost-raker, in [[Sleep]].


== Commentary ==
== Commentary ==
This show has 3 components: Larry's story of living in Seattle
while acting in a new play; Joe's childhood reminiscences (some of
which have to be fictional; I suspect they all are); Jack Kornfield
with his usual shtick.[[User:Arthur Peabody|Arthur Peabody]] ([[User talk:Arthur Peabody|talk]]) 19:06, 12 January 2022 (EST)
Joe's story about breaking a pane of glass, at 16:30, includes
a comment about Jewish law, which I think is incorrect.  I'm no
expert.  I'd appreciate an opinion from a more knowledgable person.[[User:Arthur Peabody|Arthur Peabody]] ([[User talk:Arthur Peabody|talk]]) 19:06, 12 January 2022 (EST)


This is the only time I've heard of Ted Joans[[User:Arthur Peabody|Arthur Peabody]] ([[User talk:Arthur Peabody|talk]]) 22:18, 11 January 2022 (EST)
This is the only time I've heard of Ted Joans. [[User:Arthur Peabody|Arthur Peabody]] ([[User talk:Arthur Peabody|talk]]) 22:18, 11 January 2022 (EST)


I find this, along with [[Caged Heart]], Larry Block's most-touching episodes.[[User:Arthur Peabody|Arthur Peabody]] ([[User talk:Arthur Peabody|talk]]) 13:04, 11 July 2024 (PDT)
== Footnotes ==
== Footnotes ==



Latest revision as of 17:22, 31 October 2024

Series
The Other Side
Original Broadcast Date
March 26, 2000
Cast
Larry Block, Jack Kornfield, Joe Frank
Format
Karma Style, 60 minutes
Preceded by: Zen
Followed by: The Nature Of Things
Purchase

"I'm doing this play called 'God of Vengeance'."

The Wire is a program Joe Frank produced as part of the series The Other Side. It was originally broadcast on March 26, 2000.

Synopsis

Larry tells Joe he's in Seattle acting in God of Vengeance, a play written by Donald Margulies, an adaptation of Sholem Asch's play of the same name.[1] Larry summarizes the play.

7:10: Joe tells us his family used to summer-vacation in Amenia. The neighbors bred chinchillas. One died, they buried it, Joe's dog dug it up; his parents thought their dog had killed it, so they cleaned it up and put it back.

9:10: Joe remembers when he spilled auto battery acid onto his pants.

9:40: Joe tells stories of his childhood, which include his sister Naomi and his crude grandfather, including when the grandfather pushed a piano off the roof of the apartment building.[2]

12:00: Joe remembers a bully holding his face against a subway grating. Later, Joe smacks the bully's trumpet into his teeth.

13:40: Joe remembers a dog stealing his sandwich.

14:10: Joe, 8, remembers a girl from a wealthy family visiting Joe at his home. She vomits when she sees Joe's father cutting up a bloody piece of stewing beef. The experience makes them closer.

16:30: Joe remembers attending junior congregation when he was 11 or 12. Because the cantor had such a powerful voice, it was said that it could break glass. Joe brought a window pane, broke it during his performance, cutting his hand.[3]

19:50: Joe tells of stealing a ribbon of magnesium from the science lab, to burn it in the park. They replace it with a beef lung to which they attach a duck call.

22:50: Jack Kornfield reads a poem of Rumi about a man with a jealous wife and beautiful maid servant, as an illustration of the difference between fear and love. He points out the problem grasping causes. He tells the story of the old Zen master and the thief.

30:20: Larry tells about Lorin Hollander; Larry claims he was a friend of Hollander's older sister, grew up in the same neighborhood. Hollander's playing a concert.[4] Larry attends, meets him afterwards. Hollander is nice to him, but Larry wonders if he really remembers him.[5]

40:10: Joe gets a job in the garment district when he's 13, working for a friend of his father. Nora got a job at the same time, fell in love with the boss, Sol, because of his knowledge of Restoration poetry.[6][7] Joe sees them making love.

42:40: Joe remembers 'the era of beatniks'[8] He would hang out at cafés, trying to be hip. He remembers listening to Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Ted Joans. One night, at the Café Wha?,[9] a pimp sets him up with a ‘housewife’ from Morris county, New Jersey. They park next to the Staten Island ferry; she gropes him.

46:00: Joe remembers being 19, in Santa Barbara; he's borrowed his boss's car.[10] He set the seat on fire by lighting a match to find some marijuana he'd hidden under it. He says it's the '60s.[11] The seat was destroyed; Joe replaced it with folding bridge chairs taped to the floor.[12]

48:40: Kornfield tells about his teaching partner Joseph Goldstein. He tells about Goldstein's mother visiting Goldstein in the Bodh Gaya monastery in India, how much she liked the simplicity of it. This leads into more slanging of grasping. He talks about the different kinds of giving. He quotes Epictetus, 'Never suppress a generous impulse.'

57:00: Larry tells of walking along the beach, thinks of writing Karl Wallenda's line ‘The wire is life; the rest is waiting’ on a piece of driftwood. As an actor, he's on-stage 2 hours at a time; the rest is waiting. Then he decides against it, that it'd be litter.

Legacy Synopsis
  • Larry Block describes a new play in which a brothel owner reforms and buys a hand written Torah and his daughter runs off with a prostitute.
  • Monologue of Joe's random memories part one:
    • Joe's family on vacation resurrects a neighbors dead chinchilla.
    • Joe dissolved his pants in battery acid while standing in a patch of mint.
    • Joe's father destroys his sister's indestructible glasses.
    • His grandfather tosses teacups out of windows when they don't suit him.
    • Joe's grandfather pushes a piano off a roof.
    • Joe is targeted by a bully trumpet player and takes his revenge by hitting the end of the trumpet while the bully was playing it, knocking out his tooth and causing his mouth to bleed. They get into a fight and are sent to the principle's bench. Joe's mother tells him he is a moron, and Joe's grandfather punches him in the stomach. Joe retires to his room to read about the Moors of North Africa who's skin turns blue.
    • A dog steals Joe's sandwich.
    • A rich girl friend of Joe's vomits when she sees Joe's father cutting bloody slabs of beef. Joe's mother changers her expensive dress into Joe's sister's clothes, gets the dress dry cleaned by the Chinese launderers who break the buttons. Joe's mother tries to find replacement buttons but cannot, so she replaces all of them. She returns the dress by taking it to the servant's quarters of girl's mansion in a brown bag.
    • Joe breaks glass to accompany a singer at a service because he thought it would be funny. He cuts his hand on the glass and the service ends. A gentile black man takes care of Joe because the others are not allowed to handle blood on the Sabbath. He gives Joe whiskey to east the pain. His mother smell the alcohol on his breath and thought he was drunk when he broke the glass. She verbally scolds him on the way to the hospital, telling him she thinks he is truly a moron, but then is very kind and doting to Joe in the presence of the nurses at the hospital. The nurses are so kind, he wishes one of them were his mother, so he considers getting hurt more often.
    • Joe and his friend steal a magnesium ribbon from the science lab at school so they can light it at the park. To create a diversion from the missing magnesium, they get some cow lungs from the butcher. They take a duck call whistle and put it at the end of the trachea because when the lungs where squeeze, it would make a duck call sound. They leave the trachea and lungs in the classroom on a Friday. On Monday morning, the lungs where covered in maggots. The science teacher stashed some alcohol with all of the chemicals. In his excitement, he accidentally takes a swig of sulphuric acid. The fire department arrives and they flush the teachers mouth out with water. School has to close for the day so Joe and his friend go and see a movie.
  • Jack Kornfield discusses a Rumi poem about a jealous wife and a maidservant, talks about grasping and immortality. He tells about a society of people that believe in immortality. He tells a story about a thief robbing a wise man's house.
  • Larry talks about meeting a childhood friend turned concert pianist.
  • Monologue of Joe's random memories part two:
    • Joe worked for a poetry-quoting family friend in the garment district as a teenager, his coworker falls in love with the boss. He gets hit by a car and encounters a nurse. A description of the beat scene in new york, getting offered "some housewife action."
    • In Santa Barbara with a girl in his bosses car, Joe drops a joint in the car causing the seat to smolder and burn. They find a gas station that takes the seat out and hoses it down. Joe replaces the seat with a folding bridge chair gaff taped to the floorboard. He gets fired and has to back to New York.
  • Kornfield: a middle class woman from the Catskills visits her son in a monastery in India, different kinds of giving.
  • Larry talks about leaving a note on the beach.

Music

Additional credits

The original broadcast credits state: "[C]reated in collaboration with David Rapkin, with Larry Block, Buddhist teacher Jack Kornfield, and Joe Frank; edited by Scott Fritz; mixed by Bob Carlson.

Miscellany

  • This program is also available on joefrank.com as Zen Two

At 22:10 Joe says: ‘And so Tommy Rado and I went to Palisades Amusement Park to see Dr. Neff, the ghost raker.’

A Redditor pointed me to a short video of a poster advertising Dr Neff's ‘midnite ghost show’ at the Ritz. A Charlton comic ‘Ghost Breakers’ features Dr. Neff, who debunks charlatans' ghost hoaxes,

Joe also mentions going to Palisades Park to see Dr Neff, the ghost-raker, in Sleep.

Commentary

This show has 3 components: Larry's story of living in Seattle while acting in a new play; Joe's childhood reminiscences (some of which have to be fictional; I suspect they all are); Jack Kornfield with his usual shtick.Arthur Peabody (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2022 (EST)

Joe's story about breaking a pane of glass, at 16:30, includes a comment about Jewish law, which I think is incorrect. I'm no expert. I'd appreciate an opinion from a more knowledgable person.Arthur Peabody (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2022 (EST)

This is the only time I've heard of Ted Joans. Arthur Peabody (talk) 22:18, 11 January 2022 (EST)

I find this, along with Caged Heart, Larry Block's most-touching episodes.Arthur Peabody (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2024 (PDT)

Footnotes

  1. Film Reference page for Larry Block has only this entry, ‘Reb Eli, God of Vengeance, Adams Memorial Theater, Williamstown, MA, 2002’, which was after ‘The Wire’. I figure it's incomplete.
  2. Joe had no sister; his grandfathers predeceased him.
  3. Joe says the janitor, a gentile, had to help him because the Jews couldn't break the sabbath. I'm not Jewish, but I think this is wrong, that in matters that threaten death or serious injury the rule doesn't apply - so I've read.
  4. Larry calls it a Gershwin symphony; it was his Concerto in F
  5. Larry shifts his time frame in this story. He says he came back the next day to see Hollander, then he says he left before the third piece because of his disappointing meeting with him.
  6. Joe lists 'Suckling' as one of the Restoration poets Sol knew. Sir John Suckling lived 1609-1641, thus died before the Restoration
  7. Joe quotes a few lines from Pope's ‘Essay on man’ - ‘Why has not a man a microscopic eye?…’
  8. 1955? Joe says he was about 16.
  9. Joe says he was listening to Richie Havens playing music, which he didn't start doing until the '60s; he says he performed poetry in the Village in the '50s.
  10. A ‘Dodge Dart station wagon’ - those were made 1960-66, when Joe was 21-28
  11. Joe was born in 1938, thus 19 in 1957/1958.
  12. A member of the Joe Frank e-mail list says this story happened to David Rapkin. http://list.jfwiki.org/pipermail/joe-frank-email-list-jfwiki.org/2024-July/000503.html